We're going to take up an area of church history this morning. It's the area that some of you know I've been asked to cover in lecture form for the folk in Flemington, New Jersey this coming Tuesday. It has to do with what I'm calling Reformed Baptists, their historical backgrounds in America. Now that's the subject of church history we'll be taking up this morning. In dealing with that subject, I want to say something first of all before I get to an introduction to it specifically, to the justification we're taking up in a Bible class hour, the whole subject of church history. For those of you who are here regularly you know that we don't normally do that but there is biblical justification and more much more biblical justification than if we took this whole hour we could turn you to. But I want you to turn to one passage that we've been looking at frequently in the last several weeks that distinctly concerns the whole doctrine of the church of Christ and that's Matthew chapter 28. Matthew chapter 28 and I'm particularly concerned with the last phrase of verse 20. Jesus giving the great commission has said to his 11 apostles, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth go therefore and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit teaching them these nations that you're going to make disciples out of teaching them to observe all that I commanded you and lo I am with you always even to the consummation of the age and the phrase the consummation of the age is in the context of the gospel of Matthew and the entire new testament a clear reference to the second coming of Christ and here then is a promise of the risen Christ to whom all authority has been given in heaven and earth that he would continue to help and to be present with his disciples as they took his gospel to the ends of the earth now this is a promise that in the folds of church history we can if we have the mind of Christ and the enlightenment of the word of God discern the power the activity and the presence of the risen Christ so that in studying church history our true goal ought to be to discern there the activity of the risen Christ as he continued to through his people teach nations to observe all that he has commanded we could turn to other passages the word of God that show that there will be a process of gradual development and understanding on the part of the church of Christ as they come to more and more of a distinct self-conscious understanding of different facets of the word of God but this passage alone teaches us the validity of studying church history because in it we may observe the activity of the risen Christ now that being the case we're going to take up this morning uh i'm gonna have to straighten this again i'm sure reformed baptist in reform back reform baptist their historical backgrounds in america and first of all i want to say some things by way of introduction first of all something by way of a definition what do i mean by reformed baptist well some of most of you would have a fairly distinct idea of what those phraseology that phraseology means this is a reformed baptist church the distinctly reformed baptist church of grand rapids and i intend by the term reformed baptist to designate those churches and individuals which have arisen in approximately the last 30 years in the united states of america and also in other countries but we're concentrating on those in america uh those churches and individuals which have arisen in the last 30 years the united states which hold to the confession of faith we've been studying this hour the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 and which often although not universally describe themselves as reformed baptist so there is this movement this uh group of churches and individuals of fairly a small character right now but that have arisen from nothing over the last 30 years in the united states and the thing that marks them out is that they hold that confession of faith held by this church the london confession of faith the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 now that's my definition of the word reformed baptist but now a caution you notice i've livid it limited my theme to reform baptist in america but it is impossible first of all i want to say to completely separate american baptist and church history and that of the british isles at many many different points american church history and american baptist church history will be directly dependent on what has happened in the british isles in england and wales and scotland and ireland and that i want to say so that you don't get the idea that you can treat america as a totally self-sufficient entity in church history you can't do that that wouldn't be right and it's going to be evident again and again that there's tremendous importance to be placed on events taking in england as affecting american baptist yet yet we are americans we live in america and american religious history is distinct very distinct from the church history of every other country in the world and thus there is a propriety a legitimacy of singling out the theme of reformed baptist in america now that leads me to a third word of introduction and that's my mission today what am i out to accomplish well my thesis is something uh like this i believe that reformed baptist christians if i can put it that way are strangers in a strange land to use the biblical phraseology i think we're strangers in a strange land and i think more many of us are becoming more and more aware as we interact on different levels with american culture just how strange it is to be a reformed baptist christian strange enough to be a christian more strange to be a reformed baptist christian in america and by showing you why you are strange i hope to provide you with reasons not to be embarrassed by your strangeness because normally strangeness is a cause for embarrassment isn't it but i hope to give you reasons not to be embarrassed or stumbled by that based upon a very clear understanding of uh the legitimacy of what we believe on the basis of the word of god from church history in its place in church history i also hope to prepare you for the offense which others will take at you because if you uh believe the word of god especially as it's come to expression and to be held by reformed baptist in america you are going to have people taking offense at you and just as the apostle paul uh said to the thessalonians you're suffering affliction aren't you well i told you before that that was going to happen didn't i and why did he tell them before so that they might be prepared for what was inevitably going to come to people that were as strange as they were in the midst of the first century a roman empire well reformed baptists are very strange creatures indeed in the midst of the 20th century american empire and we are going to have to take that into account and expect others to take offense at us and i want to show you uh why that's the case and finally finally i hope that a sense of mission of the mission that and the stewardship the reformed baptist with all the truth that god has shown them have in america today a sense of the mission that god has given us and of course i don't mean to be unduly exclusivistic but a sense of the mission which anyone that believes the truth of the word of god uh in the uh in the context of the great heritage of truth that god has taught his church over the ages the great stewardship that we have in that way and for that reason now uh then what will our direction be well here's our overall outline we're going to talk about the rise of particular baptist in america then we're going to talk about the debasement or the debasing of that means the um kind of polluting would be the best word of particular baptist in america and then finally a third point and i'm quite confident will not cover all of this this morning in the sunday school hour will be the rise of reformed baptist in america so we're gonna our first two points have to do with what we're calling particular baptist and then our third point will have to do with the rise of reformed baptist now we come to take up the rise of particular baptist now i'm very conscious and i was thinking about this and a little bit hesitant for this reason i'm going to move this back a little bit hesitant for this reason of taking up church history in the sunday school hour because inevitably in teaching church history i'm going to have to use a lot of names and words that since many of you have never had a church history course at all let alone one on american church history you won't recognize will you i mean you the essence of learning is somebody telling you something you don't know so to learn you have to learn things you don't know already right well i'm gonna have to use words and names that are going to be strange now here's what i want us to agree to do i'm going to try to define every word or name that i use that i think you won't understand but i may miss a few and if i miss a few you raise your hand and you tell me okay and then i'll define them for you because that's a great part of teaching church history and teaching uh christians about their heritage in the christian faith as god has led his people over 20 centuries simply learning different names and words so please if you don't understand the word raise your hand and tell me because i'm not intentionally trying to bowl you over with my great scholarship even if it did exist all right now we're going to take up the rise of particular baptists that raises very immediately the question what is a particular baptist right i told you we'd be using words you didn't understand now i think there are some out there that can define for me as well as i could a particular baptist what's a particular baptist who can help us with that carl the calvinist all right particular baptists were called particular baptists because they were calvinists to use the word that's very scary word for some people particular baptists recall that because they believed in unconditional election they believed in what was known as particular redemption some people call that limited atonement and they believed in irresistible grace and the perseverance of the saints and the total depravity of man and for that all those reasons they were called particular baptists as opposed to another branch of baptists that developed about the same time that were called general baptists because they did not believe in particular redemption or unconditional election they believed in general redemption they believed that christ died for everybody in general and nobody in particular all right now that's a particular baptist a particular baptist is one who holds to particular redemption and is therefore calvinistic frequently if not universally particular baptist embraced that very confession held by this church the london baptist confession of faith now the london baptist confession of faith as i've told you in times past was actually written in 1677 but they couldn't publish it at the time because baptists were not allowed to exist formally in england in 1677 it was only 12 years later when toleration came under under the reign of william and mary the dutch the dutch people that had been imported to rule uh england and a protestant way that in 1689 the london confession of faith was published openly in england and that's the confession that particular baptist held that was written by them and we'll say more about where particular baptists came from later today this morning but now the standard particular baptist confession of faith then was the london confession of faith held by this church but now we want to look first of all at their roots in america their roots in america well how did particular baptists come to america that's the question and how did they rise in america well america well first of all they came here through english immigration immigration from england now that shouldn't surprise us as most americans got here eventually that way or from one of the other countries in europe the english immigration brought to america the particular baptist tradition eventually in fact in 1707 there was formed what was known as the philadelphia baptist association composed of five churches at the time and this baptist association was formed and with a couple of minor additions they held to the london baptist confession of faith that had been published in 1689 in 1742 they they formally adopted this confession of faith with a couple of minor additions and it became known in america as the philadelphia confession of faith and i have a copy of it in my library i could have brought to show you today but that's the first way in which particular baptists came to the united states with english immigration so particular baptists that have been raised up in england sometimes as individuals sometimes whole churches up left england migrated to america and settled for the most part in the pennsylvania area or the middle colonies the reason for that was that they were they were did not have religious freedom in the southern colonies where the anglican church was the state church and they did not have religious freedom in the uh new england colonies where congregationalists were the state church and so basically because william penn had founded pennsylvania and given religious liberty there to quakers a lot of other odd cats uh to use the term ended up there as well and among them a lot of baptists now uh interesting story it occurs to tell me about one of the original baptist preachers particular baptist preachers in the united states how many people here have ever heard the name benjamin keach benjamin keach a number of you have benjamin keach wrote a famous baptist catechism was one of the signers of the london confession of faith of 1689 as i recall his son immigrated to the united states and his name was elias keach as i recall in the philadelphia area he presented himself as a preacher and at the age of 19 got up to preach his first sermon the fact was that elias keach was not even converted and never been a member of a church in england and was not converted when he got up to preach his first sermon but he was presenting himself as a minister basically to make a living as the as the indication is and he began to preach and probably trying to copy his famous father benjamin and in the middle of that sermon he broke down and weeping later and confessed that he wasn't even a converted man himself uh confessed his sin to the people he was preaching to and later on was actually baptized joined to one of the churches there in the philadelphia area and eventually did become a famous baptist preacher in the united states but that's one of the interesting stories of how the particular baptist tradition was brought to the united states or connected with it but now there's a second way in which particular baptists got off the ground in the united states and that's the great awakening the great awakening was very significant now that's another word that some of you may not or phrase some of you may not recognize the great awakening what's the great awakening who can give me a succinct definition or description of the great awakening when did it happen who was involved in it what did it do uh john ottin all right the great awakening was a great revival that really spanned two continents it uh was going began to go on almost simultaneously in the 1730s and 40s uh in england and america in england um it got off the ground basically with the preaching of george whitfield in the late 1730s and 40s there had been a great time of declension after there was toleration for everybody in a kind of golden age for uh for protestants and non-conformist in england in the 1690s 17 early 1700s there had gradually been a terrible terrible declension throughout the english uh culture in england and that was reversed by the coming of george whitfield and then later after him john wesley and charles wesley and the whole wesley and methodist there were two actually two groups of methodists originally whitfield and methodist and wesley and methodist but that's what happened in england in the preaching of george whitfield uh in england sparked the great awakening but already in new england uh there had been a series of revivals that had taken place under uh jonathan edwards and his predecessor at northampton massachusetts the congregational church there named by the name of stoddard i think it's samuel or is it jonathan samuel stoddard right uh samuel stoddard and his successor jonathan edwards the preachers at the uh old puritan congregational church in northampton massachusetts uh there'd been a series of revivals and when whitfield came to america a general awakening began to take place which was known as the great awakening which is really in a great sense the foundation of the whole religious culture in the united states there had been christians here very strong christian tradition in new england but that interest became general and many many hundreds of thousands of people were brought into the churches through the 1730s 40s 50s 60s and 70s and really was the first thing that really in a broad sense brought most of the people in the united states into a kind of christian consensus if i can call it that an evangelical christian consensus now what you have to understand was that the main preachers responsible for the great awakening were all in the calvinistic tradition whitfield was a calvinist jonathan edwards was a calvinist the tenants in new england were calvinist and many many of these preachers especially the ones that were responsible for the uh preaching and the breakout of the great awakening in the united states under the hand of god now were calvinistic in fact armenians were commonly known to oppose the revival and so if you were an armenian in new england or other places united states uh that was almost synonymous with being opposed to the great awakening because of your doctrinal stance and for and because of the fact that the very great uh very well known i should say preachers and christian leaders who were armenian basically opposed the great awakening because of some of its successes they rejected the whole thing and so the preachers that found that got the uh the great awakening were used of god in the great awakening were basically calvinistic whitfield and others edwards etc the tenants who were presbyterians now this new life that was being uh shed from god into the american nation the young american nation this new life however as almost always will happen led to the formation especially in new england massachusetts connecticut where you had the great heartland of the old puritan congregational movement as they have formed these state churches and these what they were called bible commonwealths in massachusetts and in connecticut what happened was a lot of those churches have become more and more dead in the hundred years after they've been founded by the very very sincere and genuine and authentic puritans that came to the united states but they be gradually gradually become more dead and in in the midst of this great awakening there was this new injection of spiritual life in the context of these churches but this led many in new england particularly to form separatist churches separatist churches which split from the old congregational churches that have been originally founded by puritans a hundred years before now they reacted against these churches because they were dead but also in or in many cases they were quite dead in their spiritual life but also because they were state supported because they were state churches in massachusetts and connecticut in fact there were state churches in massachusetts and connecticut till the 1830s but they reacted against these things a lot of the people that were most deeply awakened by the great awakening in that revival separated from the old state supported puritan congregational churches in new england form separatist churches and then what happened was by the logic of everything they believed they became baptists many of them and sometimes all the whole of these separate separating congregational churches became baptist sometimes a good deal of the membership would split and become baptist sometimes the preacher would become a baptist and he would leave and a lot of the congregation would go with him to start a baptist church there in new england well that was the source of the second major group of particular baptists in the united states now you see the english immigration here and the great awakening the english immigration and the baptists that came to united states in the pennsylvania area primarily or as having as that as their center were called regular baptist believe it or not now those regular baptists really have very little to do with uh the modern association of baptist churches called the general association of regular baptists now i'm sure that that organization took the word over because it was a word that was used to describe mainstream baptist early in the history of america but regular baptists were those that held strongly to the london confession of faith and had a very strict church order they had worked they had had a long time in england to think about how baptist churches ought to be run and what baptist churches ought to believe and they had that all very clearly worked out in their minds and for that reason they were called regular baptist anybody who wasn't one of them was an irregular baptist you see well so you had the regular baptist that basically came from the particular baptist tradition in england and it migrated the united states but then you had this other group of baptists that grew up as a result of these people that were deeply affected by the great awakening began to realize that being a member by baptism as an infant of a state-supported church was not sufficient to save you began to realize that you had to be converted yourself and therefore by the whole logic of their position believing that there ought to be a converted church membership the pastors ought to be converted if they're going to be pastors that you have to be converted if you're going to be saved they began to come to the place where they said well therefore only believers truly converted people ought to be baptized in members of churches and they became baptists you see and so you had the rise of what we're known as now you have the regular baptist now through the great awakening you have the rise of what we're known as the separate baptist the separate baptist and they were called the separate baptist for the very clear reason that they separated from the old puritan congregational churches in new england and that's where they got their started that they got their start but very soon they became active as a result of the ministry of men like whitfield and then baptist preachers who followed him whitfield was not himself he's responsible for the creation of many baptist churches and not directly but indirectly you have these baptists called the separate baptist now what you have to realize of course is that both the separate baptist and the regular baptists were basically calvinistic now let me show you how that works itself out in the particular in the particular baptist first of all in england are descended from the english puritans it's kind of faint isn't it um in england there was this great cleavage between the anglicans those who were the people who supported the state church of england and those who were puritans now for a while the anglican church was more or less uh calvinistic and reformed in its theology but very shortly it began to cease to be that and the puritans emerged and the name puritan indicates what they were they believed that the state church of england needed to be purified there are all sorts of remnants of rome that existed in the state church of england that had to be done away with and what they wanted to do originally was take over the state church of england and purify it of all its remnants of roman catholicism and introduce a pure reform religion as the state church of england and these puritans were originally basically presbyterians presbyterians who believed that there ought to be one state church in england that was basically governed by a hierarchy of of of presbyteries or consistories presbyteries classies synods in a general assembly which could basically make rules for all this all the uh churches in england these people believed in infant and they believed that all churches were connected and that there ought to be only one church in a state these were the presbyterians in england now presbyterians nowadays don't believe that for the most part but they did then but gradually as the puritans began to continue to militate and to agitate and to preach the gospel and they became more and more influential in the church of england uh they had more and more time too to think about church government how the church ought to be organized and all the presbyterians began to emerge another group of puritans called the congregationalist now the congregationalists were different than the presbyterians they believed that every church ought to be basically self-governing hence they were called independents that every church ought to be able to govern its own affairs without the interference of of a hierarchy of some kind whether it were bishops or presbyteries bishops in the church of england or presbyterians and presbyters and presbyteries in a presbyterian system but they still believed in infant baptism and still to some extent for a while at least believed that there ought to be a kind of state church system although with a lot of respect for local churches but out of the congregationalist in london in the first decade of the 17th century there was a very uh important congregational church formed in london and that congregational church was composed of a great many folk and over the years it had at least six daughter churches and five of those six daughter churches became baptists and that was the origin of the particular baptist in england the particular baptist were a kind of puritan they were baptist puritans baptists who believed in the local church who believed in the separation of church and state who did not believe in state churches and who believed in believers baptism and not the baptism of infants now that's where the particular baptist in england came from but there's a kind of parallel for where the particular baptist in england known as regular baptist in the united states came from and where the separate separate baptist emerged from you remember where the separate baptist emerged from the state churches of new england were congregational churches but when were they were touched by the hand of god and the great awakening and when the and the life was poured into them from on high many of those old congregational churches produced a baptist church so the baptist basically emerged out of the ranks of the congregationalist puritans what the point is i'm making is that this whole puritan movement was of course reformed or calvinistic and that included the particular baptist and therefore their their two wings the regular baptist in the united states and the separate baptist now that brings me to a second point unless there are questions i maybe i better ask for questions right there any questions about i kind of whipped through that you have a basic idea that the baptist the particular baptist came out of the puritan movement and i was and specifically out of the congregational churches that have grown up in the 1600s yes steve yeah that's a good idea um uh henry the eighth was the first one you remember to reform the church of england basically he was interested in money and getting a divorce from his wife but to do that he had to he had to told tell the pope to bug off so he took over the church in england himself that was in the 1530s but then through the uh and that really had very little to do with anything spiritual or religious but gradually because his only allies were the people who were protestants the church of england that he had basically proclaimed himself the head of became more and more infiltrated with protestants and especially reformed protestants from geneva and from holland and these reformed protestants began more and more to take over the church until there was basically a reformed consensus in the church of england in the 1570s and 80s but it was at that point that the puritan party in the 1570s and 80s emerged that were dissatisfied with the degree of reformation in the church of england and they began to agitate for a more pure church therefore their enemies called them derisively puritans and they were basically then saying we need a purified state church and they began to think about the ways it ought to be purified and gradually that that led to the emergence of the puritan movement and then it's basically three great church traditions came out of that the presbyterians the congregationalists and the baptists okay other questions john it's about the same time and i'm going to talk about that in just a second uh baptist the baptist churches as we know them and as we that would have any clear relationship to baptist churches today emerged in the 16 early 1600s in england there are other people that believed in believers baptism before that but they were peculiar in other ways so that they were not directly related to baptist as we know them today all right now the next thing we want to come to is having talked about the rise of particular baptist and their roots in america to talk about their predominance in america now within 50 years after 1740 uh that's we remember when the philadelphia confession of faith was formally adopted by the philadelphia baptist association within 50 years after 1740 calvinistic baptist had almost buried general or armenian baptist in america now you have to understand that in the early 1600s there were both general baptist and armenian baptist or our general baptist or armenian baptist and particular baptist or calvinistic baptist united states and they really came about the same time perhaps the general baptist were a little bit earlier but only five or ten years or so they're about equal in strength but because of the great awakening which is basically calvinistic in character those old general baptist churches which were pretty weak actually and often tainted by heresy one of the things that happened among armenian baptist in england is that many of them became unitarians and denied the deity of jesus christ but they were very weak and very uh unorganized those general baptists basically were buried by the uh particular baptist the regular baptist and the separate baptist in the strength that they had gained through the great awakening and in fact uh many uh uh baptist churches that were basically general baptists were asked for help from the philadelphia baptist association and they were basically reorganized along the line of regular baptist churches that happened especially in the south where there was some general baptist churches and what happened is that those general baptist churches were so unorganized and so loose that you could be baptized without ever having to give a confession of being converted before before the church or before the leaders of the church and so they had many members that were not even converted and a lot of the times the particular baptists would come in examine the membership because they've been asked to by these people and basically cut the membership down from 100 to 15 that's what happened in many cases in the south but because of the great awakening and the power given to calvinistic baptist churches through that the vast majority of baptists in america became calvinistic and the vast majority of the churches were after the 1740s now the regular and separate baptist however didn't always get along very well you can imagine that they had two different perspectives on a lot of things here the separate baptist they were like they're they're kind of reacting against all that state old traditional church order in new england and they'd they'd felt the power of god and the great awakening and so they were they were still calvinistic but they were kind of reacting against anything too structured and too formal they were just on fire for god going preaching the gospel every place you know whereas the regular baptist had a great awareness of the importance of a strict church order and of doctrinal stability and of a confession of faith and so a lot of times the particular the two groups of particular baptists didn't get along at first but what happened over the next 50 years is that gradually the two groups began to appreciate each other and you had the merger of the evangelistic zeal of the separate baptist and of the doctrinal stability and strict church order of the regular baptist which really produced in the combination of the two of them a very very strong baptist movement in the united states a particular baptist movement so the strength of the regulars was their doctrinal stability and strict church order well the strength of the separates was their evangelistic zeal and basically they came together then in the later 1700s and worked together in many cases and that brings me and this is maybe as far as we'll get today to their growth in america their growth in america now such a combination as i've said led to a tremendous growth of baptists in america in fact someone has laid out this chart in the year 1660 there were basically four baptist churches in the united states a couple of them as i recall in rhode island and maybe a couple up in maine and they were basically mixed both the armenian or general baptist in particular baptist by the year 1700 there had been a small growth but not that much there were 33 probably this was growth was mainly due to the immigration of particular baptist into the middle colonies in pennsylvania the philadelphia area but then you had the coming of the great awakening so that by 1740 40 years later there are 96 baptist churches in the united states and then 40 years later there are 457 and the thing just keeps going after that till in the early 19th century let's say the 1830s and 40s the two largest denominations in the united states of general groupings of christians are the methodist and the baptist and they are they will remain the two largest denominations in the united states until the great immigrations of the late 1800s bring millions and millions of roman catholics from europe into the united states and at that point roman catholicism will become the largest denomination in the united states but till that time baptist and methodist because of their great evangelistic zeal on the frontier of america will become the two largest groups of christians now the baptist that we're talking about now in those early 1800s are primarily and in the broad view of things uh particular baptist all right that's their growth in america now also uh as i've mentioned uh contributing to this great growth uh it was their evangelistic zeal on the frontiers of america and what helped them to plant churches on the frontiers of america was their tremendous was the tremendous freedom and flexibility of baptist church polity and one of the things that was responsible for this was the farmer preacher and one of the church historians mentions this peculiar individual that was not just one man but was many different people and talks about him and about what was responsible for the tremendous growth of baptists and how they were able to plant so many churches i quote the proliferation of baptist churches dependent above all upon their spiritual vitality and their individually individualistic emphasis on conversion yet they also were remarkably well adapted to the social structures or lack of them on the frontier baptists did not exceed presbyterians and zeal but they were unhindered by the bottlenecks to evangelistic work created by strict educational requirements and a rigid presbyterial polity the genius of baptist evangelism was also at the opposite pole from the methodist insistence on order and authority its frontier hero was not the circuit writer of the methodist but the farmer preacher who moved with the people into new areas unpaid self-supporting a lot of the time and hence financially independent the farmer preacher was usually a man who had heard the calls of the ministry and had got himself licensed to preach in due course he would be ordained by a church sometimes one which he had gathered himself from such churches spraying other candidates for the ministry and by this process the baptist advanced into the wilderness or moved back in among the unchurched multitudes of the older areas without direction from bishops or synods and without financial support from denominational agencies or special societies on many occasions an entire church would move on to a new location just as lewis craig's congregation moved from virginia to become gilbert's creek church in kentucky in 1783 baptist work was not as disorganized as all this may imply however for their regional associations usually state associations fostered a spirit of unity as well as concern for discipline and doctrinal harmony and so those were some of the reasons for the tremendous growth of the baptist denomination and particular baptist in the united states all right now there's just five minutes left do you have any questions before i come to a last point that i'll just begin to touch on this morning yes bill uh well that's a big question well yes basically um the westlands got off the ground in the united states in the late 1700s since they were associated with the anglican church after the revolutionary war they met a degree of opposition in fact there was a there were a few methodists in the united states before the revolutionary war but because they were connected with the state church of england indirectly they lost most of their leadership at the revolutionary war when they all went back to england and john wesley denounced the american revolution well um then however there were they under the leader of leadership of francis asbury uh they began to implement the system of circuit writing preachers and were responsible for planning many many hundreds and thousands of churches on the frontiers of america through a great deal of evangelistic zeal because they were armenian uh in their basic uh theology however when liberalism began began to come in in the late 1800s it didn't even meet a fight in the west in the methodists for the most part and basically the major methodist groups became very very quickly honeycombed with liberalism and modernism because of that okay other questions carl yes i should mention that yes yes well that's a good idea carl why don't you do that that i was just looking at that graph if you have the book it'll give you an overview of the entirety of baptist church history since the reformation and if we made 150 of them maybe on the church machine we could do that but the book is entitled introduction to the baptist by earl halts i don't know if it's still in print maybe doug you could find that out i don't think so but if it is we should get some copies in and because that's a very very helpful overview of baptist church history doug yes yeah do you have that in stock yes that's that basically treats the uh the uh a lot of the different avenues of particular baptist history too and how they held to uh the doctrines of grace other questions now if you know much about baptist churches in the united states today your great question is going to be well what happened because uh i don't think anyone would dispute the question or the statement or the assertion that most baptist churches in the united states today are not particular baptist churches they're not calvinistic in any clear sense at all how did calvinism or the particular baptist heritage which at one time 150 years ago basically dominated american baptist churches how did that almost totally disappear from baptist churches in america by 1950 or 60 until it was a very rare thing to find a convinced calvinist who would call himself that among baptists well the answer to that question is not simple in fact it's quite complicated in some ways but various factors can be pointed out and i'm going to begin to point those out next week as we take up the debasing of the particular baptist heritage in america and how it came to be at its present very low condition in terms of what baptists were at one time in the united states so that's where we'll take it up next week all right you're dismissed